Maybe I need to raise my potential, two-to-three-years-in-the-future rate. My friend is working for EY right now in auditing but as soon as he finishes his CPA he is hoping to get into a private business too. He is already making really decent money at EY, but could easily double his salary going this route.
As in worthless human beings? What an ugly attitude. The belligerence toward bystanding institutions and vocations is saddening, though. I took out student loans like the vast, vast majority of my colleagues. I have to agree as well. There may also be a lot of employers who did give University of Phoenix grads a shot, only to have them bomb the interview or get hired but end up disappointing the person who hired them, so their experience may be colored by actual experience as well as the bad press.
OP, I feel so sorry for you! Hopefully the education you obtained will help you breeze through your current program. But I wonder if you should mention the Phoenix education at all? I received a degree from University of Phoenix, and I learned so much in the program, but unfortunately we all know what that degree counts for. So many people are in the same situation as you.
If I was conducting the interview, I would still feel that the Phoenix education has value. I second this angle. We can also assume that OP learned a fair amount by doing the coursework, which has value. So while the university has its problems, completing any MBA program requires effort and creates new ways of thinking about business.
The only downside I can see to not including the UoP degree might be in the payscale when you get hired. I know some companies put you in a higher pay category if you have completed a masters degree, so by leaving it off the OP might be losing out on some pay at the start. I used to work at an online school. Not U of P, but a close competitor. I managed our social media and saw questions from students and grads every day.
I have to say most grads struggled. It was unfortunate because I think people really did work hard and I am sure there were some great teachers and tough classes. But the majority of grads ended up working for the school if they found a job at all. Those who were successful were people who likely would have been ex: I am sorry you are having a hard time.
You sound like you really took the most from the program. I hope you find something soon. I would leave it off. There was an online doctorate and someone defended their thesis in Second Life. They get to be called Dr. And for me kind of funny in a morbid way as I graduated from the biggest university in my state and I would love to work there given the chance, but getting a job there is probably harder than graduating.
The university in question makes you use their online application system for jobs. So when I logged back in recently I checked my history and found 95 failed applications staring back at me. I was having a good self-esteem day so I was able to just laugh it off, but geez!
I applied a bazillion times to my school, for jobs I was perfectly qualified for and I never got in. Even when I was a student I never got in! This has been done several times that I am aware of. That thesis went on to win awards at my school.
In fact disease researchers used World of Warcraft as a prediction model for the spread of disease by tracing the way people interacted with a bug in the system some choosing to help others, some quarantining themselves, some passing it on purposefully. It was interesting research. I was there for that event! I remember it vividly—major cities turned into absolute ghost towns and everyone kept dying, trying to get away and play in unaffected parts.
What exactly is wrong with doing your thesis defense using a great conferencing tool? I have a friend who works at UofP and another who works for a different online college. The first is in business development and the second is in financial aid. I almost took a job at a for-profit college when I was a new grad. The role paid better than any of the other entry level positions I was applying for, and as a new grad that was a plus.
I ended up doing some research on the school and knew I would feel guilty working there, so I declined. I wonder if your friends no longer feel guilt after working there for awhile or if they actually buy into what the school is selling? A lot of people there appeared to have bought into the Kool Aid though. The thing was, there were exceptional students. I talked to a prospect that went to a christian school of some sort for her MBA.
I was the first person in my family, and I had an awful time figuring what to look for in a college. I ended up going to a state school that offered me a good scholarship, but I can see how someone could make the wrong decision about attending a school, especially if their parents told them to or if they were an adult trying to get a degree while working and taking care of a family.
It sucks that those schools are legal, because their practices border on fraud. This is so true. I think this is also the reason behind why so many are up to their eyeballs in student loan debt. I can see this. Not only for the knowledge of the educational system that comes from parents having been to college, but their parents are also more likely to work in degree-requiring positions where they can see the reaction to for-profit degrees firsthand. The sad thing is, they bill themselves as being accredited, prey on the lowest rung of the food chain, and then charge huge fees way more than going to a normal week program to learn this skill at an accredited community college only to leave people up a creek later.
These poor people never knew what hit them. I hated giving them that news — I could literally hear them going through all five stages of grief as our phone conversations progressed. I have had two different experiences with UOP candidacy. While I did attend, I know a few folks that have. Congrats on getting your MBA, you did put in the work and the time. And I think you are right, it should mean something; perhaps it is just not universal. I do not think that the MBA makes it look like you are trying to scam anyone at all.
OP was taken for a ride by a predatory for-profit degree mill; UOP are the scammers in this situation, I think. I know a guy in sales, very successful, very well regarded, and he literally laughed out loud when someone put UoPhoenix on their resume and sent it to him. I am so sorry. It felt wrong, but they paid very, very well. What made you return to school? Bonus points for the personal improvement angle. Just saying you started the journey at one school and completed it at the other one will help waive off any reservations the employer might have.
Especially if you are applying to jobs that require an MBA. I think it would stand out, and not in a good way. There are a lot of places that do degree verification when said degree is a requirement, too. I know U of Phoenix as a school has regional accreditation, which presumably is what the OP is referring to, but a professional school needs to be accredited by a specific relevant body, and their MBA program is not.
Aaand as I note below this is incorrect. It is accredited, just not by the main professional accreditation body. I think the accredited status is a red herring. That actually seems more like trying to scam the employer than just saying you got an MBA from X and letting them judge X as they will.
I think that the name of UofP would be eye catching at an initial stage in a bad way. It was just a suggestion. Honestly, with how quickly recruiters and managers look at resumes, I would most likely not notice a school name missing, especially if education info was listed at the bottom of resume VS the top.
But if I saw UofP, I might hesitate. The unfortunate part of this is, a family friend went back to school in her 40s at DeVry to get a degree in something like medical records. This is the other thing that is sad about these programs: And community colleges have these programs. For trade school or for transferable credits to a four year college. I think community college might have less stigma now since four-year schools have gotten so expensive.
Where I grew up, the local CC was very well regarded and had agreements with nearly all local high schools to let kids take classes there if they maxed out courses at their high school for example, taking Calc 2 or 3, or an advanced Stats class was common. Thus, the campus positioned itself as attracting the best and brightest high school kids, who could then rack up credits to transfer to the state university system.
Most of the people with whom I grew up went to a 4 year straight from high school but a significant number did the cc thing for a year or two for various reasons — but most certainly not due to academic limitations or to my knowledge financial. I got my degrees from a community college ten years ago — when I was in my 30s. And I wish I had been able to go to a 4-year school back in the day. They get to work and go to school without paying tuition and books for an employer who wants them in school so we accommodate scheduling, we get people we need in positions that are sometimes hard to fill, and the school wins because they get fewer people dropping out of the program due to finances.
Community college grad here, no shame whatsoever. Graduated with a top-notch education in my field, and enough units to transfer to a 4-year school as a junior.
You just have to be careful about the real transference of credits. DeVry is totally legit. I have hired people with degrees from DeVry and they are very well-trained. I could be incorrect, but I believe that DeVry is like a vocational-degree oriented program. Meaning their focus is providing very specific professional certifications in technology. If anything, it should cost less.
My 4-year engineering degree is generally worth more than a 4-year engineering technology degree. DeVry does have ABET-accreditation for some of their engineering programs, which is huge in that field, but Engineering Technology is different than Engineering. I was wondering about this: Well, if a school is part of a state network that should be fairly obvious.
You can always check Wikipedia. I remember when we were hiring temps, none of them went to a normal school like a community college or university. It made me wonder if they had to look for temp work because of this.
I had a friend who went to DeVry. He studied networking, which is a very specific in-demand job and has been employed in the field for at least two years now after having working about 5 at a movie theatre. The benefit of a degree from one of the more prestigious schools after your education ends is that your networking options are probably superior.
Move to southern California. You could do it after graduation, sure, but your peers in SoCal have been interning every summer with the local studios. Also, some degrees do better than others you have to be somewhat prolific to work in fashion, but if you have a strong graphic design portfolio, no one cares where you went to school.
I know Art Institute grads who work at big game companies, but in individual circumstances the Art Institution can be just as predatory. If all that matters is your portfolio, is self-study an option? Assuming it was something one could reasonably do at home without expensive equipment, like illustration. If the only benefit to going to art school is the networking, that almost makes Art Institutes and the like a worse deal than not going to college.
I think it gives you a leg-up and I think since your peers are so much more likely to be in New York and LA after graduation, the number of jobs you hear about internally, I think makes a big difference.
So how you break in is to take an internship hopefully paid and then move up to designer or something like that. Because the -school- might not matter as much in this field, but having a resume filled with experience and projects certainly does. If you can work for a nonprofit or something for a certain amount of time and create substantial work samples, you might be able to overcome that.
Well, I think it depends on which discipline you are seeking training in. If you are talking studio art, you learn more in art school than just technique. Specifically, the critiques and the environment of working with a group of talented people pushes you to achieve your best.
In other words, you get there faster and you learn a lot of the extraneous bs that goes beyond making the object. You also make connections that can help you in the long-term if you maintain them. Community art centers are often good places to start for beginner skills and connections, but in some galleries, there is an expectation of college-level training. Believe it or not, the gap in skills can present itself later when you are competing for wall space with people who have had more rigorous training.
I think that depends on what kind of art you want to do and where you want to go with it. Commercial art graphic design, illustration, advertising , or fine art? You look at someone like Jean-Michel Basquiat, he was self-taught. Even if you study or are trained in technique at school, eventually you develop your own style, which is always self-taught.
You could self study printing techniques by taking some courses and then paying for studio time. This person was tapped to be the Big Creative for an agency in New York. But some people need the structure of a program to meet people. Art Institute is indeed a bad choice and I know two people whose path has been harmed by attending. Likewise other art schools or creative programs such as film, even the good and excellent ones, if the student is just planning to return to hometown or suburb, are also not good choices.
She told me she will keep waiting for her big break to work at her favorite production company… A break that will go to a guy or girl willing to move wherever for the work. This is a great question! Too bad answering it would get askamanger. So once the so-called for profit schools get out of the news the stigma will die down. Students are not manufactured products that are better from one place than from another. In the long run, we all teach ourselves.
So many HR idiots are obsessed with soft skills, and they think they can tell if an applicant will be good or not simply from a two page resume and what school they went to.
After all, you can be fired for anything in the USA. A number in my industry, at least, the majority of reputable places test their candidates these days, but the pool of test-takers has to be determined somehow.
And the more junior the role, the more popular. HR officers have to filter somehow: At this point, you have nothing to lose by trying. Never underestimate the power of soft skills. I worked on a project in one of my classes with a guy that I thought was really going places in life.
I was so surprised to find out that he was a C student. His grades did not mesh with what I saw of him. Upon thinking about it, I realized his soft skills were above average, waaay above average. I was wrong, his pool of intelligence lies in people skills, that is his genius. I fully expect that he is successfully climbing the corporate ladder now. This is a great example.
I am, however, people smart. And its the smart I would choose any day of the week. Ruth, you need to work this anger out before you try to get a job. That needs to be priority number one in your life so you can live happier and healthier. There are a lot of ways to rate schools, other than just reputation.
For-profit schools typically fail at all of these measures, which is why they have terrible reputations. There are hard numbers to back it up.
Sometimes creating a portfolio of work or even YouTube tutorials on some aspect of your job that may fit that can help give an I press ion as well. They interviews for my type of work are panel, multiple, and is based a lot on fit.
My skills and what I can show get me in the door and I believe I make up for my shortcoming with the soft skills. OP, first off, I feel your pain here, and have utmost sympathy for your predicament. Shining a light on those decisions is the only way the problems caused by unscrupulous for-profits will get rectified.
This is very specific to the Art Institutes, but the local one in my city asked me to come in for a breakfast with a few other professionals in our field. And that would take six minutes for one of my junior level people to make. For programs like this, in the future, I would look for professors who are either scholars in the field for theory classes or actual working professionals for practical classes … to me that seems like a safer way to make a judgment on what the program will be worth.
As a former applicant, there were several issues that did not work for me, but the most annoying scenario was: I graduated from semi-famous school abroad in a program run by famous person. I was taught in English, obtained the degree, could provide transcripts, and had been teaching for several years. AI insisted that I used a service owned by a related company to run an American equivalency at my expense. Maybe this is standard practice? I transferred to a non-profit private school.
We used to recruit pretty heavily out of DeVry. Just the usual IT complaining about how no matter what you learn in school otj is a completely different world. Theory and practice are never the same, but in IT the chasm seems to be wider than many other fields. If you go to DeVry and get a job as a sysadmin or network engineer, you will either sink or swim pretty quickly and very publicly. I have an MBA from a top school and I needed it to get the kind of work I do marketing and strategy.
But I work with a software product manager who never finished college. With my kind of work, employers have to rely on credentials and hope that the schools do a good job with admissions. I fully admit that I have a bias against for-profit schools. I have a bias against for-profit schools as well. As a hiring manager, I would see a degree from University of Phoenix as being worse than no degree at all. Instead, I worry that the applicant is unwilling to do background research and lacks good judgement.
There IS evidence to support that. If you use an unlicensed builder to put up your home I cannot be too sympathetic when it falls off the cliff. So, I work in a field with a very specific accreditation body that companies want my degree to come through.
UofP may be the least of all the concerns! Hiring is all about making quick judgments based on limited data. I treat UofP as worse than no degree too. I also have a very negative UofP reaction because years ago I worked with 2 people that were basically idiots — and they both got UofP degrees in order to move to the next payscale at our job, but did not appear to actually learn anything from their UofP coursework.
However, I would consider it a small lapse in judgement that I might overlook if the person had a really strong work history and there was solid evidence of their ability to the the job. I would not take a chance on a recent grad with limited work history, which seems to be the situation OP is in.
Given two engineers, one who want to UoP and one of went to MIT, which would you be more interested in? Id be interested in the one that had a better understanding of the engineering at my company and could show how he could excel at the job. Right, and who do you think is most likely going to have better access to the education, people and equipment that will directly lead to and help them become successful at actually doing stuff? Few hiring managers are going to care about the person who worked two jobs going to school.
Shenanigans, If that were the case why would I even interview anyone else when someone from a top school applies? You can call shenanigans if you like, but its lived experience for me. It does NOT happen that often. I have to throw in with Joey on his last comment.
People are told they need the degree to get anywhere in life. U of P is very, very convincing. Pick another reason to weed applicants out. I am in state government. I would be very suspicious of any MIT or Harvard or any other Ivy League school applying with me because, well, my state ranks at or close to 50th in state government salaries.
Of course our salaries are bad enough that I have never actually attracted an applicant from an Ivy League school and probably never will. I would look closely at what their grades, activities and classes were before assuming MIT was the better candidate. I have known more than one person who got into a prestigious school thanks to connections, who was a blithering idiot, or an automaton unable to think for themselves.
Do you know how many engineers struggle to write, or communicate their projects within their company? Do you assume all kids who went to prestigious schools are golden right out of the box? My sister is an Ivy League grad, my dad went to an equally prestigious school. Both of them were underemployed for decades, though I am proud that in middle age her career is finally taking off.
I believe research has shown that after the first ten years, work experience, not pedigree, is what makes a difference for workers. Mediocre folks with stellar degrees are out there, and stellar people with mediocre degrees. I agree with Joey that the person who is a self starter from a tough background might be the better hire.
U of P does not have an ABET accredited engineering program, which is a pre-requisite for obtaining professional engineering licensure. Alpha and Omega in particular have been a struggle for them. State school and UoP is a better contrast. However, she was a go-getter, which would have been true whereever she went. Anyways, I would agree that a bad engineer at a good school is still a bad engineer not worth hiring. Most for-profit schools use an internal questionnaire and regularly admit students who are not academically qualified.
If you are still unconvinced, here is the video of the GAO undercover sting operation that uncovered outright fraud at 7 for-profit admissions offices: Thanks, Former For-Profit Insider.
These reasons, among others, show the lack of ethics that form the very foundation of UofP and other for-profits. It speaks more to a business model with a conflict of interest. Former, All that means is good schools bring in more folks with some assurance they have more potential. I find it curious that a poster below broke out the MIT vs.
UoP argument, since it is unlikely such a dichotomy exists. I worry that so many resume reviewers will ditch middle of the road schools simply because they think they can. Nope, not talking about you at all! I actually agree with the guy Mike C.
My brain tells me I would try and do the same thing… and that smells like bias to me. On the MBA as a check the box, I would also be inclined to agree with you… I would probably not read any deeper than where their MBA was from as a talking point and move on. And exploring the reasons why the individual who made the original assertion has these intuitions shows that reputation does, in fact, play a role.
The lack of nuance is important for denying the original claim. The thread was just quite long already so I tacked my last comment onto yours. In best-case situations, you should look at other accomplishments, as Alison advised in this article, but hiring managers are limited by time and education is a really quick way to rule people out. How many folks do you know that regret some big aspect of their degree?
As I say, you made it quite clear in that thread that any subjective sign of irrational or self-defeating behavior was a heavy mark against one of your candidates, and dismissed other commenters as emotional when they pushed back against this tactic as heavy-handed and lacking in empathy.
I have a degree from a different for-profit university. You could consider putting a hard luck story in your cover letter with your degree, but unfortunately most of us assume that people had those constraints family obligations, FT job, lack of funding, whatever and still discount the degree.
Better to just drop it if you can. Which only leaves me with an associates degree from an art school, which is worth literally nothing. You may be surprised how influential an associates can be. We all get judged for our choices, regardless of whether we had other options.
The majority are diploma-mills and the courses are hit-and-miss. Well, the secondary reason for rejecting them would be that someone else has better qualifications. All else being equal, guy from Wharton will get it over guy from Vandy, even though Vandy is awesome and on through the tiers. Yeah, I have to say: I know plenty of kids that paid for their degrees at prestigious institutions as well. As long as the networks are in place, people are going to want to hire from the sources they trust and give their own alma maters credit for having set them up for success.
When I was hiring PhDs we would not consider those who had them from degree mills or for profit distance schools. We favored those from strong tier one universities, but would consider strong candidates who had degrees from less impressive schools and hired a few. But distance degrees at this level? You mean you assumed they were less competent based merely on the school they went to……. You also assume someone is less competent based merely on the GPA they got.
Arbitrary decisions are arbitrary, but you take the best available information you have and make quick assumptions. More prestigious schools have higher admissions criteria and a more competitive application process, which serves as at least some sort of screening mechanism.
It certainly helps a lot. Instead you should look at how universities rank for the major relevant to your job.
The top ranked school may not even offer a degree more relevant to your business, like marine biology or video game design, so why would you consider a non-relevant degree from a higher ranked national university better than a relevant degree from a top university in that field? The grades given at the local community college are a far better indicator of how much students actually learned. But please, tell me how you graduate in good standing from a place like MIT or Harvey Mudd while being a lazy student.
Your logic is flawed here in general. Rich people have advantages in professional life. And there is something to be said for flipping burgers full time while clawing your way through engineering school compared to say someone who could afford an unpaid internship.
I tutored a student at the local college for pre engineering. He had a 4. This is why experienced engineers get the biggest projects, not the inexperienced person with the degree from the best school.
And this is why folks with top degrees arent a shoe in for every job they apply for. There are a lot of unemployed lawyers. Books about law school even advise that there are and will be a lot of unemployed lawyers for a long time to come. Because the country literally has more lawyers than it needs. Funny how no law schools are going out of business or getting a bad rap in the press! I was reading an article just a few weeks ago about a law school closing down.
Someone linked elsewhere in this thread an article from the Atlantic about for-profit law schools recently. And for the past few years, the New York Times has been coming down super hard on law schools. Committees have been formed to evaluate how law school market themselves, reporting guidelines have changed with regard to graduation rates and employment statistics, and yes, schools have closed.
As Green says, law schools are absolutely going out of business and getting terrible reputations. Go visit Above the Law, or the many blogs about third tier law schools. This has been in the news for several years. Do you have any idea the number of cumulative hours people have spent trying to HELP you? Stop being so petulant. Try some gratitude and perspective.
Above all, stop biting the hand that is trying to feed you some much-needed reality. I mean, probably nobody cares which ivy league is on top or if cal tech is better than MIT. But those names do carry weight, both overall and in specific fields. And there are tons of lower tiered schools that also turn out successful people. Wait, a school losing accreditation years down the road invalidates your degree?
That does make any sense to me. This is just what everyone has said, plus he used sign his emails Joe Smith, PhD, and no longer does that. Maybe they lost it retroactively somehow? Like if the accrediting body found out they had misled them when they were first accredited? US News rankings consider alumni donations. I am telling my classmates that our school ranking needs to remain high because the name is still on our resumes.
A friend caught me in a very weak moment and promised I would have to contact only ten people. I am never answering the phone when she calls again! This seems weird to me, too. It looks like if the school was legitimately accredited when someone graduated, they are okay.
We ran into this issue where I work where someone had a degree from a school no longer accredited and we needed to know when they lost their accreditation with regards to when he graduated. They were still accredited when he graduated, so it was all good. It depends what field. I got the degree and checked the box off so now they look at my professional accomplishments.
But lots of actual universities i. Yeah, that just sucks, but it still is what it is. The initial problem compounds itself even as people try to better themselves and they get stuck with more debt, a degree that may hurt more than it helps, and no better job prospects. It also sounds like you did your research and ensured credit transfer, etc.
I do find it a bit hard to believe that there were no distance learning options available from more reputable institutions, but maybe you chose an obscure major. That reputation may or may not be deserved depending on the program, but the reality is that UOP and similar are painted with a broad brush in a negative light, to the point where it seems like it actually hinders you to have a degree from one of these schools.
For-profit schools were already considered sketchy in —there were books on the industry detailing the problems, and their funding for elected officials was being considered questionable. For-profit schools were considered sketchy long before distance learning existed. I worked at one briefly around and they were considered sketchy even then, except for certain vocational fields. I was in an online MS Mechanical Engineering program 5 years ago through a reputable brick-and-mortar university, for which you did not have to be online at any specific time and you could have anyone proctor your exams.
I think the problem is that students who are looking at online universities tend to be very nontraditional, i. I took engineering graduate courses using distance education in from a land grant school in another state, before taking years off and completing mine videos coming in the mail, online chat and proctored exams by HR in Now imagine the same thing, but you are just now coming to the USA for whatever reason: I grew up abroad though born a US Citizen , in a country where access to degree programs is limited to academic superstars all Universities are State run — and run to a universal standard — which is generally excellent.
I started with a major multi-national without any degree. They transferred me to the USA where access even to the job I had tends to be limited to candidates with degrees. Sex differences in mental scores, variability, and numbers of high scoring individuals. Sex linkage of intelligence: Study of mathematically precocious youth after 35 years. Perspectives on Psychological Science, 1, — Students Say Summers Should Stay. Retrieved December 5, Retrieved 30 May Retrieved 8 August Retrieved August 10, Archived from the original on Shootout at Jackson Hole: Square Adds Former U.
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Harvard. RA Medical Informatics. Waterloo. Honors BASc. Computer Engineering. Provide the 9, family physicians in Ontario with a web-based portal to help them identify the gap between the care patients receive and the care recommended by evidence based guidelines based on lab (OLIS) and OHIP data. University . A reader writes: I've got an MBA from University of Phoenix and at first I was really proud of it. I'd worked really hard to get through the corporate fina.